Part I
“Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.”— W. B. Yeats
“Should we be any more surprised, then, to see evidence emerging in Iraq of false-flag terrorist bombings conducted by the major occupying powers? The secret services and special forces of both the U.S. and Britain have, after all, had some experience in these matters.”
The violence stemming from the [February 22nd 2006] bombing of the Al Askariya Mosque in Samarra continues unabated. The death toll continues to rise as does the intensity of recrimination amongst Iraqi political and religious leaders.
Predictably Western leaders were quick to denounce the bombings and call for restraint.
“But our message to Iraqis is what I think others around the world would say, as well: Exercise restraint. Violence will only contribute to what the terrorists want. Make no mistake about it. This was a brutal terrorist attack. It was an attack against people of all faiths and against all of humanity. The terrorists have no regard for innocent human life, and all they want to do is create chaos. That’s why it’s important that we continue to work with the Iraqi people and win in Iraq.” [Source - all links in this article open in new windows ]
That these calls most notably those from the Bush Administration and its embassy in Iraq are aimed primarily at their domestic political audience and not at those who have to live in the blood-soaked mess that those Western leaders bear prime responsibilty for creating should go without saying. That they stem from a desperate need to be seen to be doing something is also self-evident such statements from Bush, Blair, and their hangers-on are essentially meaningless and deserve no further attention.
Far more important is to comprehend the context of the bombing and the significance of the timing. Both say much about those who committed the attack. The perpetrators and those from whom they take their orders, whoever they they may be, wanted to precipitate a civil war. They picked an excellent target, carried out a technically quite difficult operation - planting charges to demolish a large building is a skilled and lenghty task:
“According to initial reports, the bombing was technically well conceived and could only have been carried out by specialists,” the minister told Iraqia state television.
“holes were dug into the mausoleum’s four main pillars and packed with explosives.”
“Then the charges were connected together and linked to another charge placed just under the dome. The wires were then linked to a detonator which was triggered at a distance,” the minister added.
To drill into the pillars would have taken at least four hours per pillar, he also estimated.
Damage to the mausoleum, holding the tombs of the 10th and 11th Shiite Imams, was extensive.
“The dome was completely wrecked and collapsed on the tombs which were covered over by debris. The shrine’s foundations were also affected as 40 percent of the power of the blast was directed inwards,” he added.
[snip]
Jaafar said he survived a double bomb attack while returning from Samarra when blasts went off in front of his convoy and behind it.Samarra when blasts went off in front of his convoy and behind it.”
[ AFP story in Turkish Press ]
Chose the most politically inflammatory time [link to my background briefing] at which to carry it out, and succeeded in their alloted task.
Nobody was killed during the bombing itself, but there have been scores of deaths during the ensuing “sectarian violence.” From the reports coming out of Iraq the bulk of these seem to be “revenge attacks” upon Sunnis.
The reaction was predictable and that America as the main occupying power would be blamed is not only equally predictable, but correct, the US and her allies are responsible for security in Iraq and have singularly failed in their duty to provide it.
Equally predictably the Western media and Western commentators have been agog at the prospect of the attack and its aftermath presaging full-blown civil war in Iraq.
“Iraq took a lethal step closer to disintegration and civil war yesterday after a devastating attack on one of the country’s holiest sites. The destruction of the golden-domed Shia shrine in Samarra sparked a round of bloody sectarian retaliation in which up to 60 Sunni mosques were attacked and scores of people were killed or injured.” [ UK Independent ]
“Iraq slips towards civil war after attack on Shia shrine”
“Appeals for calm fail to halt reprisals” [ The Guardian ]
It is a measure of the magnitude of the Bush and Blair collaboartive failure to observe even the most minimal decencies of war, of international law, or of military effectiveness that it is all too easy to see how full-blown civil war could indeed now materialise. No amount of optimistic powerpoint® presentations can conceal their failure. The simple fact is that they do not control over 70% of the country and their grip upon what they do “control” is increasingly tenuous. Far from declining the rate of resistance attacks upon occupying troops has risen as has the level of sophistication of those attacks. Those who talk of Iraq already being in a state of full-blown civil war fail to realise that that rate would fall dramatically because fighting would be directed inward.
Moreover several things militate against full-blown civil war not least that senior clergy and nationalists on all sides of Iraqi society have set their face against it. Many of the Shia blame the the US and its allied occupying powers:
“My brothers this is no coincidence consider that in the space of a few days we have:
- The Danish cartoons.
- More photos of the evil the crusaders do in and are still doing in Abu Ghraib.
- We have the British army assaulting Muslim children.
- We have an “incident” at the jail.
- Our brother Shiite’s mosques in Pakistan have been bombed just yesterday.
- Just yesterday the massacre of Shiites and now;
- This most heinous act of desecration.
No reasonable person can believe that any of these acts are random, they were all planned and co-ordinated by the Americans and the Danes and the English to plunge us to war so they can continue to rape our land.”
Others initially blamed “Takfiris,” but not the Sunni population en bloc. While this:
“Among the dead were 47 people, apparently both Sunnis and Shi’ites, whom gunmen dragged from vehicles after they attended a demonstration to show cross-sectarian solidarity near Baghdad.” [ Reuters ]
If true, and I see no reason to doubt it, is harrowing. The mere fact that there have been such demonstrations of “cross-sectarian” solidarity is not only unsurprising to anyone who knows Iraqis. It is also very encouraging. that such demonstrations took place despite three years of divide et impera. Despite their pious protestations to the contrary the occupying forces, particularly during the Bremer régime have gone out of their way to encourage both sectarianism and separatism. Iraqis are not fools - they know what was done to their country, they know who did it, they know that those people have “special forces” opreating in their country. They haven’t forgotten that in Basra for example the British army used tanks to free two members of the Special Reconnaissance Regiment from Basra jail. Nor have they forgotten that the UK army tried to hush the matter up.
“At the request of the MoD, British media obscured the faces of the two captured men. The two sides give wildly differing accounts of events, but it is not disputed that they had been sitting in a car outside the police station in Arabic dress. They were heavily armed and had an impressive array of surveillance equipment with them. It is not impossible that one or both of the men are not British. Special forces from Australia and New Zealand, for example, often work closely with the SAS. They could even be “civilian contractors” of the kind hired by the CIA, usually ex-special forces. But it is their mission that is more significant.” [ UK Independent
“The two SAS soldiers, reportedly working undercover, were arrested by Iraqi police but then handed over to members of the Mahdi Army, a Shia militia that has heavily infiltrated the security forces in southern Iraq. The raiding force freed the two from a house next to the police headquarters.” Financial Times ]
The explanation as to what the “undercover servicemen” were doing in Basra, and why releasing them was so that the British Army alienated its client régime there by sending in tanks and fighting with residents has never been satisfactorily answered. The answer given at the time was as follows:
- The Basra local government is now effectively under the control of Shi’ite militias specifically the armed wing of SCIRI, the Badr Corps.
- Moeover SCIRI is under the thumb of Iran.
- Iran is fomenting unrest in Basra and the surrounding province using SCIRI.
It was a coherent reasonable sounding explanation. There’s just one problem, it was manifestly untrue:
Iran was working through the pro-occupation SCIRI? Really? The Iranians were working their nefarious magic through “The reactionary and collaborationist Islamic Supreme Council (SCIRI)“ and their Badr Corps?
The fact is that SCIRI’s militia was fighting Muqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army, and nobody else at that time..The “Iranian” cover story simply won’t wash and Iraqis knew it then, and know it now:
“The fierce determination of the British army to remove these men from any danger of interrogation by their own supposed allies in the government the British are propping up—even when their rescue entailed the destruction of an Iraqi prison and the release of a large number of prisoners, gun-battles with Iraqi police and with Al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army militia, a large popular mobilization against the British occupying force, and a subsequent withdrawal of any cooperation on the part of the regional government—tends, if anything, to support the view that this episode involved something much darker and more serious than a mere flare-up of bad tempers at a check-point.
[snip]
Should we be any more surprised, then, to see evidence emerging in Iraq of false-flag terrorist bombings conducted by the major occupying powers? The secret services and special forces of both the U.S. and Britain have, after all, had some experience in these matters.” [ link ]
Part II
Having if only briefly explained some of the context let us now turn to the attack itself. Who did it? And Why? “Cui bono?”
Who did it?
The short answer is “we don’t know.”
“There was no claim of responsibility, but the five police officers responsible for protecting the mosque were taken into custody, and Iraqi authorities said another 10 men “with links to al-Qaida” had been arrested.”
[ The Guardian ]
Mouwafak al-Rubaie blamed the al Qaeda terror network and Ansar al-Sunnah for the explosion, saying it was intended “to pull Iraq toward civil war.”
While this from AP:
“Insurgents posing as police destroyed the golden dome of one of Iraq’s holiest Shiite shrines Wednesday”[ Search ]
Became standard fare for western media. At the time of writing nobody has claimed responsibility. I doubt anybody ever will. What did happen was a rush to condemn the bombing and to assign blame:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: “These heinous acts are committed by a group of Zionists and occupiers that have failed. They have failed in the face of Islam’s logic and justice.”
Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei: “This is a political crime and its origins should be found in the intelligence organisations of the occupiers of Iraq and the Zionists … There are definitely some plots to force Shi’ites to attack the mosques and other properties respected by the Sunnis. Any measure to contribute to that direction is helping the enemies of Islam and is forbidden by Sharia.”
Moqtada al-Sadr through Abdel Hadi al-Darajee: “We will not only condemn and protest but we will act against those militants. If the Iraqi government does not do its job to defend the Iraqi people we are ready to do so,”
Iraqi Islamic Party: “(The party) strongly condemns this sinful act and calls for a wide-reaching and objective investigation to catch those behind this crime that aims to harm the Iraqi people by provoking destructive sectarian strife.”
Iraqi President Jalal Talabani an ethnic Kurd: “This new ugly crime comes as a warning that there is a conspiracy against the Iraqi people to spark a war among brothers. God willing, we will not allow this … We must cooperate and work together against this danger, the danger of civil war. This is the fiercest danger because it threatens our unity and our country with a devastating civil war.”
Consultative Council of the Mujahideen in Iraq:.”Shame and dishonor to those who undertook and executed the crime against the Imam Ali Al Hadi Holy Shrine!
It is the US and only the US which is the number one responsible of the crime against the Imam Ali Al Mahdi - Peace be upon him - holy shrine, not only because it is occupying Iraq and is responsible of whatever goes on in this country but also seen from the angle of planning the crime and the ones who have the greatest interest into undertaking it. As for Iran, it is the natural US partner in this crime as in all the previous ones, before the occupation and until now. Yes! Iran has uncovered its last criminal cards in its attempts to use our brothers and families in the south as a fire wood for its wars and a tool to find a solution to its differences with the US on the soil of Iraq. That is why we heard from some of those who consider Kahmenei and Kadhim Haeeri and others as their sectarian reference announce in absolute stupidity and idiotic behavior that if Iran was attacked their supporters will attack the US in Iraq! This kind of a homeland treason makes some of these shut up about the occupation of Iraq and its crimes while some others participates into supporting the Occupation, execute its crimes and destroy Iraq but announces at the same time that it will use force to defend Iran? Today all the cards which used to be denied and concealed from the Iraqi people in general and specially from our people in the south, have been uncovered. The Ba’ath Party
Resistance Council: “[The] “Shi’i government” of American-installed puppet “Prime Minister” Ibrahim al-Ja’fari and Iran were behind the bombing … … … to cover up their crimes against the Muslims.”
So much for the western corporate media, however as Dahr Jamail pointed out what they (mostly) didn’t show was Iraqi’s spontaneous reactions of solidarity. His report is worth quoting at lenght: Empasis added by me:
“The horrific attack which destroyed much of the Golden Mosque generated sectarian outrage which led to attacks on over 50 Sunni mosques. Many Sunni mosques in Baghdad were shot, burnt, or taken over. Three Imams were killed, along with scores of others in widespread violence.
This is what was shown by western corporate media.
As quickly as these horrible events began, they were called to an end and replaced by acts of solidarity between Sunni and Shia across Iraq.
This, however, was not shown by western corporate media.
The Sunnis where the first to go to demonstrations of solidarity with Shia in Samarra, as well as to condemn the mosque bombings. Demonstrations of solidarity between Sunni and Shia went off over all of Iraq: in Basra, Diwaniyah, Nasiriyah, Kut, and Salah al-Din.
Thousands of Shia marched shouting anti-American slogans through Sadr City, the huge Shia slum area of Baghdad, which is home to nearly half the population of the capital city. Meanwhile, in the primarily Shia city of Kut, south of Baghdad, thousands marched while shouting slogans against America and Israel and burning U.S. and Israeli flags.
Baghdad had huge demonstrations of solidarity, following announcements by several Shia religious leaders not to attack Sunni mosques.
Attacks stopped after these announcements, coupled with those from Sadr, which I’ll discuss shortly.
Shia cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani, shortly after the Golden Mosque was attacked, called for “easing things down and not attacking any Sunni mosques and shrines,” as Sunni religious authorities called for a truce and invited everyone to block the way of those trying to generate a sectarian war.
Sistani’s office issued this statement: “We call upon believers to express their protest … through peaceful means. The extent of their sorrow and shock should not drag them into taking actions that serve the enemies who have been working to lead Iraq into sectarian strife.”
Shiite religious authority Ayatollah Hussein Ismail al-Sadr warned of the emergence of a sectarian strife “that terrorists want to ignite between the Iraqis” by the bombings and said, “The Iraqi Shiite authority strenuously denied that Sunnis could have done this work.”
He also said, “Of course it is not Sunnis who did this work; it is the terrorists who are the enemies of the Shiites and Sunni, Muslims and non Muslims. They are the enemies of all religions; terrorism does not have a religion.”
He warned against touching any Sunni Mosque, saying, “our Sunni brothers’ mosques must be protected and we must all stand against terrorism and sabotage.” He added: ‘The two shrines are located in the Samarra region, which [is] predominantly Sunni. They have been protecting, using and guarding the mosques for years, it is not them but terrorism that targeted the mosques…”
He ruled out the possibility of a civil war while telling a reporter, “I don’t believe there will a civil or religious war in Iraq; thank God that our Sunni and Shiite references are urging everyone to not respond to these terrorist and sabotage acts. We are aware of their attempts as are our people; Sistani had issued many statements [regarding this issue] just as we did.”
The other, and more prominent Sadr, Muqtada Al-Sadr, who has already lead two uprisings against occupation forces, held Takfiris [those who regard other Muslims as infidels], Ba’thists, and especially the foreign occupation responsible for the bombing attack on the Golden Mosque in Samarra.
Sadr, who suspended his visit to Lebanon and cancelled his meeting with the president there, promptly returned to Iraq in order to call on the Iraqi parliament to vote on the request for the departure of the occupation forces from Iraq.
“It was not the Sunnis who attacked the shrine of Imam Al-Hadi, God’s peace be upon him, but rather the occupation [forces] and Ba’athists…God damn them. We should not attack Sunni mosques. I ordered Al-Mahdi Army to protect the Shi’i and Sunni shrines.”
Why?
To begin to answer that we need to undestand that the bomning wasn’t a resistance attack. It doesn’t meet any of the criteria for one:
- It wasn’t directed against either occupiers or Iraqi troops.
- It wasn’t directed against Iraqi police even the five policemen inside the mosque were only tied up inside it - not killed.
- It wasn’t directed against the occupation’s infrastructure - such as a base.
- And it wasn’t directed at worshippers at prayer - the mosque was empty.
Not “resistance fighters” then. Could it have been associates of “Al Qaeda in Iraq” as “everyone” assumes? Possibly, they have of course carried out attacks on Shi’ite worshippers - but the mosque was empty and like their equally sectarian counterparts they tend to go for smaller scale “target of opportunity” atttacks. Moreover, again like their equally vicious counterparts, they usually take the bodies elsewhere to be found.
The case against the occupying powers
“Who benefits?” Who would want outright civil war in Iraq? Who would that serve? An Al-Qaeda inspired group? Certainly, but we should not stop there. There is one actor in Iraq, two if you count their “strategic ally” with an strong interest in fomenting civil war, a power with a long and shameful record in the region, a power which does not hesitate to use violence against small countries whenever it feels even remotely threatened.
There are entirely valid reasons why a superpower intent upon “definitive domination [this link is to a PDF document]” that has “lost” its bases in Saudi Arabia, been chucked out of its bases in one Central Asian country, and is aware that it might “lose” its other bases in the region might desire a civil war, particularly a “contained” civil.
- The most important of which is ;
- An Iraq violently riven by unbridgeable sectarian divisions would have great difficulty forming a unified bloc against the occupation.
It has several other benefits for such a power:
- It diverts those Iraqis who might otherwise heed unity calls from fighting occupation troops.
- Domestically it diverts attention away from the rising tide of public scandals involving US and UK troops.
- It provides a justification for “staying the course” in Iraq.
- As a further benefit from point 3 above, it diverts attention away from the 14 “enduring bases” in particular the “super-bases” desigated h1, h2, h3, and h4. [Of these four super-bases base h4 can be ignored for present purposes, bases h1 - h3 are situated to give stategic control of the pipeline(s) through Syria.]
Of these from a local strategic point of view the first, third, fourth point are the most important. The number, intensity, and sophistication of attacks against the armies of occupation was already rising. While the Iraqi population as a whole do not support the occupation:
“The survey was conducted by an Iraqi university research team that, for security reasons, was not told the data it compiled would be used by coalition forces. It reveals:
• Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province;
• 82 per cent are “strongly opposed” to the presence of coalition troops;
• less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;
• 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;
• 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;
• 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.
The opinion poll, carried out in August, also debunks claims by both the US and British governments that the general well-being of the average Iraqi is improving in post-Saddam Iraq.” [source] [Non-UK readers should note the the Daily Telegraph is an emphatically conservative newspaper. - mfi ]
See also: Iraqis think U.S. will stay permanently, poll finds [ link ]
Despite that fact, despite the fact that some of the most recent pre-Samarra attacks could be laid at the door of an emerging Shi’ite resistance. The main occupying power believes it cannot “afford” to leave. As noted above even the House of Saud doesn’t want them on their soil. Thus from a Washington perspective to follow their ejection from the peninsula with a forced exit from Iraq would represent an unthinkable loss of face. To leave without defeating the resistance would be effectively to admit that the resistance, a minority of a minority, in a relatively small part of the country - had won. America would be seen as an enfeebled giant whose military had been hollowed out by Secretary Rumsfeld’s reforms [link to my posting on this site “Attacking the Tail” this link does not open in a new window] , incapable of defeating a minority of a minority within a geographically relatively discrete area of a defeated fifth rate military power.
Moreover as William Arkin notes like their British allies the US has a long history of using agents provocateurs
and created a specialised group, the Proactive Preemptive Operations Group tasked with doing just that.“Insulated from outside pressures, armed with matchless weapons and technology, trained to operate below the shadow line, the Pentagon’s black world of classified operations holds out the hope of swift, decisive action” [ Source Los Angeles Times ]
Update
I’m now working on describing the other parties in the Iraqi war of whom an Iraqi might say “cui bono.” In the meantime I thank you for your continued patience and invite you to read two articles that I’ve written today on my other site:
As always feel free to comment either here or there.
markfromireland: March 1st 2006
Update 2
I have urgently updated my posting “Reaction to the Samarra Bombing” below.

There’s a lot in this post to keep in mind, and I’m eager to see where you go with this. Coalition forces will clearly benefit from the attack and its aftermath, most notably a new round of violence to justify tighter control over the movements of regular Iraqis (short term goal) and to justify a prolonged presence in the country (long term goal). [Note that the latter is becoming increasingly unpopular in the U.S.]
Now, if you’ll entertain it, let’s pull back and look at the history of foreign occupation in Iraq. Even going back to the Mongolian sacking of Baghdad in 1258 (something that is very much a part of the Iraqi psyche). Can anyone seriously believe that “sectarian division” and civil war is more of a priority than kicking the occupiers out? If this attack was meant to instigate and catalyze internal division, is it not then a total miscalculation? It would seem to only foster alliances between the Sunni and Shia factions (even if they are to be temporary).
It’s obvious to me that the coalition forces are not interested in regional stability or security. Al Askariya Mosque was not viewed as an important holy site by those who are ostensibly in the country to protect the citizens from each other. I fear, as I think you do, that this is an inflammation of the course of violence we’ve been on for at least a couple years now. If plotted and carried out by the current occupation, not only is this just about the worst move that could have been made, it is a cynical ploy to make the “kind folks at home” believe the violence is not directed at their sons and daughters but at other Iraqis by fellow Iraqis.
Comment by Ryan — February 26, 2006 @ 12:29 am
Thanks for the post, Mark.
My first thought was Mossad. They would be the most experienced, competant, committed and ruthless of all the black op operators. And they absolutely hate muslims. I have read multiple quotes (no links, sorry) from Israeli leaders characterising Palestinians and Arabs as less than human.
The account by the Iraqi minister? begs the question “Who could have undisturbed access for four plus hours? How could this happen?
Comment by Griffon — February 26, 2006 @ 12:42 am
No argument from me on any of that Ryan. Particulary your refernce to Hulegu. Those alliances aren’t as temporary as the might seem btw.
Griffon that is indeed a very good question - for the recrord i think 4 hours is way too short. Closer to 12 would be my guess.
I’d say that the guards inside had no means of communicating. They wouldn’t have needed one. Literally of all the unthinkable things this or a similar attack on the shrines in Najaf and Karbala were unthinkable. Nobody quite simply would have believed and that’s despite the threats. How they got past the outside guards is what i’d like to know. I gather that the police officers whose beat it was are all now in custody. God help them even if guilty God help them.
And btw bad as this was Najaf would have been worse and Karbala my mind shuts down.
Comment by markfromireland — February 26, 2006 @ 12:58 am
Thanks Mark.
I said four hours going from what you said about drilling one column and then presumed multiple teams in action. But I know nothing about these things unlike yourself. 12 hours makes it even stranger.
Dahr Jamail reports that a journalist covering the story (presumably on the spot) was killed/assasinated. You might like to keep an eye on his site if you don’t already. http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/
Comment by Griffon — February 26, 2006 @ 1:28 am
12 hours makes it even stranger.
Dahr Jamail reports that a journalist covering the story (presumably on the spot) was killed. Might be worth keeping an eye on his site if you don’t already.
Comment by Griffon — February 26, 2006 @ 1:32 am
Here’s Dahr Jamail’s link
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/
Comment by Griffon — February 26, 2006 @ 1:35 am
Thank you for the reference site, mark, it is very helpful. I, too, do not understand how the timing works out, but I agree with Griffin as well as with you (both here and your comments at firedoglake) that there is ample evidence already that this was not an Iraqi action. I spent some time at Baghdad Burning last night, as well as Juan Cole. (BTW, what do you think of him?) I think the West is hearing very little truth about this from any media here; it is often said that Bush is incurious, but it can be said of American Corporate Media just as truthfully. In addition to the military occupation there, we have a media propaganda occupation in the US, and as the truth leaks out, the talking heads will have a laughable situation on thier hands as they try to avoid mea culpas.
There is a big focus on the relationship between the Shiia and Iran, and I wonder how significant you think this is? And why haven’t Iraqi leaders told the US to get out? It can’t be security, although that’s what we hear; it can’t be infrastructure, Iraq has suffered terribly with US efforts at this and has rebuilt itself in the past in far less time than it would take the Marines to paint a school. Is it really just the issue we hear about “creating a government” which this “sectarial violence” is delaying?
Finally, the neocons and thier followers live very narrow and frightened lives. They would cower under tables if war were declared here and the streets of New York of Chicago were occupied by foreign armies. If the occupiers jailed Bush and moved into the White House and the Ranch in Crawford, or jailed Cheney at Camp David, the neocons would have no political capital left to ask the world for help and they have caused such deep divisions in this country because of thier agenda that the people would also fight among themselves over how to respond. As siun says, it is essential to look at our own humanity and forget the arrogant ideological horrorshow. And as much as Du doesn’t want to hear it, there are millions of Americans who hate what has been done in our names and grieves with the families of the Middle East. We are ashamed and we are disgusted, but demolishing this system takes more than just wanting it to be so. We are doing our best.
Comment by zennurse — February 26, 2006 @ 2:07 am
Griffon truly I’m as puzzled as anyone on that aspect. Whether we’ll ever find out is another matter. One possibility that was mentioned to me - it’s intuitively plausible in one way absolutely not in another. Is that guards’ falmilies were taqken hostage.
I’d better clarify something my estimate is based on plans of the dome and photos looking up from the floor to the dome’s apex. So I know where the charges have to have been placed you can see very clearly in the photos the blast path. This was very expertly done - somebody on that team got a lot of trainig the sort of training professionals in highly professional armies get. It’s expensive and take a long time.
What I don’t know is the actual dimensions whether the depth of the dome how much reinforcement whether the rods are iron or steel etc. So it’s an educated guess. Actually the fact that the miniser also said 12 hours makes me almost want to reduce it as he would be very much in cover your ass mode. Let’s say a scal of 6 to twelve with twelve more likely on our present knowledge.
PS: There’s a queue moderation thingy on this blog - it’s there from hosting company which was why some comments didn’t show up immediately. Nothing sinister :-)
Comment by markfromireland — February 26, 2006 @ 2:27 am
A French analyst says that the bombing confirms al-Sadr’s contention in the eyes of other Shi’ites that Ayatollah Sistani’s position has led to impasse. The new government may ask for a US pullout.
Comment by Nur al-Cubicle — February 26, 2006 @ 2:40 am
And by the way, Condi just got her patootie kicked in Saudi and in the Gulf. She flew to Beirut unannounced and in a state of agitation, just so she could blast President Lahoud.
Comment by Nur al-Cubicle — February 26, 2006 @ 2:42 am
Zennurse - thanks for that. Juan Cole knows his stuff. I disagree with some of what he says, especially about Lebanon simply because I get more detailed info than he does. That said I’ve the highest respect for him - he is very expert.
Yes you’re right the reports here - and the reprorts there are very different.
As to Iran - the countries are linked getting rid Hussein was always going to create a rapprochement. But they’re very different Baghdad taking orders from Tehran is the least likely scenario fo all. As to why they haven’t said “get out” - this is an interim govt. under the TAL. they don’t have the power to.
Also they’re getting a lot of money, I don’t mean corruption just that the only money coming in right now is from the US. I don’t think irrespective of who takes over that any government will tolerate US presence for long. But I don’t know what treaties may have been signed allowing oh say 14 bases. A new govt. could say “well they were signed under American guns so they’re not valid.”
As a historical point - not one of the huge US bases in SE Asia, France, Belgium, Denamrk etc now exist.
Lastly as to du he knows that, I know why he wrote what he wrote his descrition to me when we spoke had me in tears and I don’t do that easily.
Like me he knows that time is running out. And on a human level he only had two days before he headed back out. He’s back out now. God keep him safe.
Comment by markfromireland — February 26, 2006 @ 2:45 am
Nur! Thanks for dropping by.
Gee my heart bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeds for poor little Condi. Drop by sparklepony’s place for actually ooooh hang on.
I’m going to quote zennurse (who really is a nurse:)
Back to the two gentlemen:
There’s a fair amount to what he says Nur - so long as we remember that they’re in a power struggle for leadership of the Shia in Iraq. Not religious leadership of course. Al-Sadr isn’t a clergyman as you well know despite what the Western papers like to say. (Some of his followers too. To be fair to him he’s never claimed to be a qualified clergyman and has rebuked those who’ve called him that.)
Anyway sorry gettng late so I’m wandering. He and al-Sistani are rivals for political leadership so I’m inclined to read that in that light.
Comment by markfformireland — February 26, 2006 @ 3:27 am
Mark,
Thanks for the explanation for the delayed posting. I thought I’d done something wrong or that it wouldn’t accept links.
A question for you - to do the demolition job as nicely as they did, would you expect the bombers to be able to design the charge accurately enough by just inspecting the mosque or would they need access to the building plans or specs?
Or is there some other way the bombers might ascertain the force and placement needed?
I’m not up to speed on your situation but I gather your son is in Afghanistan. I certainly hope he returns safety and he is in my prayers.
Comment by Griffon — February 26, 2006 @ 10:27 am
Oh inspecting the mosque would be enough. But my guess is that they had plans.
Mosques especially one like that are open places. The whole point is that they’re accessible to pilgrims and tourists. I’ve never been in that particular one but it’s very “standard” architecturally. Somebody who for the sake of the argument said he was a pious engineering or architecture student and wanted to do sketches of the interior wouldn’t have any problems.
That would certaintly make life easier. But access to plans would be easy there would be God knows how many books about such an important building and pilgrimage site. Many of which would give a floor plan. Glancing to my left I see a tourist guide on my bookshelf about the Cathedral here in Copenhagen that book has just such plans. That and a quick visit is all anybody would need.
This was planned for a long time - months not weeks. Most big symbolic bombings are planned often for a very long time.
The best known example is of course 9/11. You and I think of that as what it is - a horrific terrorist attack and mass murder. But I also think of it as a symbol, as did they, they saw the twin towers as the perfect symbol of American dominance of the world, and made two attempts to attack them, people often forget the first bombing attempt. The synbolic aspect of bringing them down was just as important, maybe even more, than the deaths involved. Charming mindset no? But that’s the mindset involved.
Hope this helps and thanks for your good wishes for du I greatly appreciate them.
mfi
Comment by markfromireland — February 26, 2006 @ 11:32 am
PS: Once you made the inspection calculating the amount of explosive needed would be a doddle. It’s a simple engineering calculation.
Comment by markfromireland — February 26, 2006 @ 11:49 am
Great articles Mark - and informative comments too. I wanted to ask you this very question last week - after reading Today in Iraq last week I had a lot of questions -
Comment by Grania — February 26, 2006 @ 6:05 pm
OMG I think I see where you’re going with this.
Comment by declan — February 26, 2006 @ 9:57 pm
Thanks for your answers and Part11, Mark.
You make an extremely valuable point about the symbolism.
I have many questions whirling around in my head (like everybody else, I suppose) that I need to think more about, but two I would like to ask of you now if I may.
Are any of the actors on the Iraqi stage NOT saying anything? i.e. Is anyone conspicuous by their absence in the media? and
Does anyone know at what stage of completion the US bases are in Iraq, particularly those in the north western sector?
Comment by Griffon — February 27, 2006 @ 12:22 am
As to your first question:
No - everyone is being most loquacious. To mangle the language somewhat they’re loquacing like their lives depended on it.
The second one:
There’s no information - no reliable information anyway.
Comment by markfromireland — February 27, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
Note to all readers
A point I realise I forgot to mention - sorry it’s so basic that it’s the sort of thing one assumes everyone knows. Guarding the shrine would be done by the Waqf (because Samarra is a Sunni town) that’s why they despatched an investigative team from Baghdad the moment news broke.
Comment by markfromireland — February 27, 2006 @ 3:16 pm
Mark, I can’t thank or praise you enough for your stirling work here. It’s a wonder to me that you find ANY time to sleep, or indeed to do much else other than to work of these matters. On a scale of 10, I think you score 11 - or maybe I should make that 12.
Comment by Richard — February 27, 2006 @ 8:51 pm
I am thinking more of the Israelis (Likudites) and wondering if they are keeping an extremely low profile at the moment.
Their elections are coming up next month, I believe, and I can’t help wondering what effect that has on the timing of the blast. Also, little commented on is the fact that the Israeli economy has been losing ground for a number of years now and only survives with massive injection of funds from the US.
I can imagine the Likudites view the prospect of the US retreating to any degree with horror (equating it with a financial retreat from supporting Israel). They would also view the prospect of a falling $US (because of the Iranian Oil Bourse) the same way.
As I understand it, the US Navy is very vulnerable to Iranian Sunburn Missiles especially in the Gulf including the UAE port.
If this is so, then one would think they would evacuate the Gulf before attacking Iran.
But this would leave the US forces in Iraq without a supply line unless they can supply overland from Israel.
And to do that those bases would have to be operational, I would think.
I can’t help wondering if Mossad blew up the mosque to jamb the US between a rock and a hard place and force them into a massive response one way or another whether they are ready or not.
Comment by Griffon — February 27, 2006 @ 9:24 pm
Richard thanks - I’ll admit I’m a bit tired.
I’ve a lot more to come but this week is hectic for me so I’ll update in small sections. Not how I’d like to do it but there’s so much coming in as well as this.
More on bases as follow to Griffon’s question above:
As far as I can find out there are currently 17 US military bases in Iraq.
That’s sounds a lot but most of them are disposable. The ones to watch are the three huge ones, H1, H2, and H3 bases are situated so as to control the through-put of oil pipelines to Syria and beyond. They’re apparently currently undergoing continuing construction.
If I were a nasty cynical suspicious person about the ideologues within the Bush administration I might suspect that once those three are completed that the Americans could sit on the sidelines of any civil war until such a time as civil society was completely destroyed then “support” the demoralised client state controlled by the winners.
I’m so sorry to come back to you in dribs and drabs like this but that’s about the the only information I can get that I’d put my name too. Everything else I got sounds intuitively plausible but I’m a great believer in Occam’s razor :-)
Comment by markfromireland — February 27, 2006 @ 9:24 pm
We’re obviously cross-posting :-)
Oh yes indeed Griffon, all of those points are very germane I suspect we’re on the same wavelenght here.
To answer: They’re keeping very very quiet indeed. Incidentally have you noticed how some American likudniks:
Feith,
Wurmser,
and
Cambone,
in particular are being very very quiet indeed right now?
You’re right about sunburn, (assuming that you’re not talking about the submarine launched one.) Any attack on Iran is going to put the US in a world of pain. Incidentally the Iranians aren’t the only ones who want a non-dollar bourse. Quite a few voices in Europe are starting to be heard on that topic.
Comment by markfromireland — February 27, 2006 @ 10:19 pm
Thanks Mark. Yes H1,2 &3 (4?) are the ones I was thinking of.
With the bases operational and the Persian Gulf closed, the Israelis would have an extremely powerful position if the oil pipeline to Haifa was completed. They would have a choke hold on Europe’s oil supply.
All the political leverage they want and an end to their financial woes. Too easy! But are they and the Americans ready?
I’ll leave you in peace, now. Thank you again for what you are doing, Mark.
Comment by Griffon — February 27, 2006 @ 10:20 pm
Time for me to get some work done and then get some beauty sleep. I’ll check back sometime tomorrow and answer what I can then.
G’night folks
mfi
Comment by markfromireland — February 27, 2006 @ 10:23 pm
Griffon,
I served under Mark, so did Deco, so I don’t think he’ll mind me saying that the Haifa pipeline is still in existence, it needs some upgrading but it’s basically in grand nick. It could be brought online very very quickly. I don’t know if you know Haifa, I do, it’s a bit of dump, and gets a not very good living now from port activity and some tourism. But lots of terminal fees coming in would turn it round very quickly.
It was built by the Brits and they did a good job on it, it’s old yeah, but it’s perfectly serviceable.
Comment by the smurph — February 27, 2006 @ 11:50 pm
Oh and Mark - this on your other blog:
Had us in tears.
Just like the bad old days isn’t it? Saw du’s posting, glad he’s around to be in a bad mood is all I’m going to say about that.
Comment by the smurph — February 27, 2006 @ 11:54 pm
Thanks, smurph.
Every report I seemed to read about the pipeline decribed it in a different condition.
It being servicable (or near to it) makes things a little more understandable
And while I’m “on the air”, we cross posted again, Mark!
The Sunburns I referred to were the land based ones many of which are mobile, I believe, just to add the US’s woes.
I didn’t know they had submarine versions as well. Makes for a very deadly game of cat and mouse off Yemen.
What a monumental gamble! No wonder the Likudites think they need to give the US a prod from behind (if that is, indeed, what they are doing).
Comment by Griffon — February 28, 2006 @ 12:46 am
soaking up insight - thank you Mark for this site and for helping us understand
so … does the UAE port deal that now has W in trouble here make any sense within a move on Iran scenario? some kind of quid pro quo for use of UAE ports - and would UAE be OK with a US attack on Iran? (I’ve noticed how little we’re hearing about any ME reactions to the recent attention to Iran unlike the coverage here in the states pre-Iraq which did talk about reactions from neighbors even if the tales were unreliable)
soaking up the knowledge
and sending a wave to Du and to you
Comment by siun — February 28, 2006 @ 4:24 am
Thank you, Mark! Your reports have been very helpful. The discussion within the comments have been helpful too.
This Old Brit gave me your link. I am very glad to have it. I will be back.
Comment by Rosemary — February 28, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
You’re welcome Rosemary come back when you feel like it and feel free to ask questions :-)
Comment by markfromireland — March 1, 2006 @ 12:06 am
The link for the Los Angeles Times article doesn’t work . But google givesme lots places that have it. I don’t know how to do HTML, so I can’t link - sorry.
Thanks for the great info - I’ll definitely be back!
Comment by Karl — March 1, 2006 @ 12:44 am
I’m back from visiting your other site. I’ve got two personal questions if that’s OK. - I used to be a journalist, retired now, but you’ve got a very distinctive writing style.
I’m sure I’ve read stuff by you before. Did you do a big set of articles a few months after 9/11? They were about Islamic activists I can’t remember the title now but it was something like:
“A framework for understanding Islam”
Was that you? If it was you should put them online they were really helpful.
Now the really personal question:
Are you a Muslim?
Comment by Karl — March 1, 2006 @ 1:17 am
I hadn’t realised they’d made it across the Atlantic Karl. :-) I don’t suppose you can remember which publication you read them in?
The answer to your second question is that I’m a Catholic.
Comment by markfromireland — March 1, 2006 @ 1:41 pm
Thanks to Griffon and Declan for comments re Haifa pipeline - I have been researching like mad and now I am ready to have a heart attack -
Comment by Grania — March 1, 2006 @ 5:47 pm
Believe me Grania I empathise. If you want to let me know when you plan on having it. I’ll work out the time zone difference and we can have a coordinated turning purple and clutching of chests.
Comment by markfromireland — March 1, 2006 @ 10:47 pm
You’re on cheeky! OT I’m a civilian so I am not familiar with your more technical postings so I have to research all that stuff. In my day the Brownies weren’t armed and we didn’t have explosives training - of course it’s all different now.
Comment by Grania — March 2, 2006 @ 12:03 am
Mark,
I also would be very interested to read the articles Karl refers to.
Grania,
I, also, would be very interested in what you have come up with and any links you might be able to provide.
The standard wisdom in following corporate and political crime is “Follow the Money”. But I’m thinking that “Follow the Pipelines” might be more useful for the Middle East!
Which prompts a question - why doesn’t BP continue it’s Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Tblisi straight to the Black Sea given they have to deal with Turkey either way.
Comment by Griffon — March 2, 2006 @ 1:28 am
Mark there’s been a bombing in Jounieh.
Comment by Tony Byrne — March 2, 2006 @ 8:02 am
I know hit the wires 2 hours ago.
Thanks Anto, welcome back.
Chaps I know you’ll all be worried so I’ll tell you here that Ibrahim Fatima and the kids are OK - they’re in Beirut on a shopping trip and staying with her mother. I have to go out until late tonight so Deco will be minding the shop.
Anto your effing email account is bouncing my messages clear your sodding inbox would you?
mfi
Comment by markfromireland — March 2, 2006 @ 8:14 am
Quick update lads:
The bomb was small and at the Palais de Justice. Lots of broken glass but no broken people.
I’ce just got off the phone with Marie and says its AQOWF.
If I had to bet on it I’d say it was one of the chain of them since December.
Lots of gossip going round about the big meeting in Beirut. The papers are saying it’s a second Taif. No prizes for guessing who’s the only shagger to do a NS.
What was that? Lahoud? - CORRECT!
NO whispering in the ranks gentlemen!!!
Comment by Declan — March 2, 2006 @ 3:00 pm
Hello Mark
Found you via google - your translations are terrifying. But those were Jihadi boards right?
My boyfriend and I were talking in the pub last night to some German guy and he said to keep an eye on low-level ethnic cleansing. “Self-segregation” he called it he said that’s what happened in Yugoslavia jst before it got really nasty. I just did some googling and sure enough I found this AP story published just yesterday:
March 1, 2006, 3:36PM Evictions May Foreshadow Iraq Civil War
Are they right? Is that what it means? My brother’s in the army and he’s got two kids. We should get out NOW! [no foul lanuage please] Blair anyway he’s just a [no foul lanuage please] tory in disguise.
Comment Edited by Declan. Removed “naughty” words
Comment by Quiche Eating Islington Poofter — March 2, 2006 @ 5:33 pm
Why didn’t it accept my post?
Comment by Quiche Eating Islington Poofter — March 2, 2006 @ 5:33 pm
Now there’s a descriptive handle :-)
Hiya QEIP,
There’s a script in place to catch “naughty” words. I’m minding the shop so I got a message asking me to moderate your comment.
Your German pal was right. It’s one of the signs, a “precursor” Mark calls it. People either getting out while the goings good or being forced out like in that story. I did a few months in Bosnia after the war ended and when you talk to the refugees a lot of them talk about that about being forced out before the serious shooting began.
Sorry about your brother I know from my own family that the families have it tough.
Sorry to edit you like that
- YOU CAN SAY WHAT YOU WANT BUT KEEP IT CLEAN -
We’re not Americans and we don’t want here getting like some American board.
Comment by declan — March 2, 2006 @ 5:53 pm
Thanks Declan - Point taken sorry about that. But to get back to my question.
What about the boards those quotes are from though? They were they Jihadis? Those were the extremists board? My bro’ll probably be alright because he’s not in a Sunni area? Sorry to keep going on but we’re all going demented about it.
Comment by Quiche Eating Islington Poofter — March 2, 2006 @ 6:17 pm
Quiche Eating Islington Poofter I’ll come in on that question. I went back and red that psoting again - No those weren’t Jihadi boards reading them I can see that most of them were from moderate Shia boards.
Sorry mate, I know that’s not what you’d like to hear. But that’s the way of it.
Tony.
Comment by Tony Byrne — March 2, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
QEIP I’m not a 100% sure but my guess is no they’re from the boards ordinary people use. Mark’ll be back in a few hours and I’ve left him a massage.
Best I can do - sorry.
Comment by Declan — March 2, 2006 @ 6:39 pm
Thanks Anto.
Comment by Declan — March 2, 2006 @ 6:42 pm
Thanks Declan and Tony I’ll check back in a few hours.
Comment by Quiche Eating Islington Poofter — March 2, 2006 @ 6:44 pm
Anyone got a comment on Scott Ritter’s article at www.alternet.org/strory/32911 which was posted yesterday - he says the Baa’athists were responsible for Samarra!
Comment by Grania — March 2, 2006 @ 6:56 pm
How’ya Grania
I’ve corrected the link:
http://www.alternet.org/story/32911
Quick scan - sounds plausible - I’m off to eat, but before I go if you just click into the adrress bar and copy the whole thing you save a heap of typing.
See yez in a few hours
Comment by Declan — March 2, 2006 @ 7:31 pm
Thanks Declan - I enjoy your comments - I see his Nibs has left you in the driver’s seat today - sure we won’t even miss him!
Comment by Grania — March 2, 2006 @ 7:50 pm
Quiche Eating Islington Poofter:
Declan and Tony are correct - those quotes, with one exception, are taken from fora that are either overwhelmingly Shi´ite or non-sectarian. You’re not the first person who has asked that so perhaps I’d better edit that posting to make that clear.
Let’s move on to what’s much more important. There’s no nice way of saying this. Anywhere in Iraq is dangerous for any foreigner right now. That being said there are degrees so let’s go down through them:
The really dangerous areas are mostly “controlled” by the Americans.
The British sector is relatively quiet. There’s a relatively low incidence of attacks against British troops. There are a whole lot of reasdons for that not least that British soldiers are far far far better trained than American ones for gendarmerie/LIC* type operations.
There aren’t any guarantees and I can’t be more reassuring than that. All I can say is that his chances are pretty bloody good.
I hope that helps - feel free to get back to me whenever you want.
Comment by markfromireland — March 2, 2006 @ 10:08 pm
Grania - thanks good article and he makes a good case. I need to re-read it before I say anything. The most I’ll say right now is that I can make a very convincing case for just about anyone. I’m busy making those cases right now and have set aside most of the weekend to this set of articles finished and reorganised properly so that they’re a bit more digestible.
What I’ll say right now is that anybody anybody who says it was “X” needs to be taken with huge doses of salt. That includes me. I’ve no doubt where the responsibility lies where the culpability lies is another matter entirely.
Comment by markfromireland — March 2, 2006 @ 10:25 pm
Thanks mate I appreciate it. Listen no offense, my mum’s Irish, but it feels weird to be asking an Irish bloke with the tri-colour up on the top of his page about a British soldier being OK well OKish. No offense just I should be able to ask a Brit and get a straight answer like you and your guys gave.
Thanks I really appreciate it even if it wasn’t what I wanted to hear.
Comment by Quiche Eating Islington Poofter — March 2, 2006 @ 10:32 pm
No offense taken Quiche Eating Islington Poofter I agree with you completely. Say “Howya” to your mum for me.
Comment by markfromireland — March 2, 2006 @ 10:35 pm
From Scott Ritter’s Alternet article (thanks for the link Grania & Declan)
“The Bush administration is already chomping at the bit to attack Iran, using the vexing Iranian nuclear program as a diplomatic smokescreen to cover broader regime-change intent. The developing close ties between Baghdad and Teheran will only reinforce this tendency towards confrontation. Therein lies the awful genius of those who attacked the Al-Askari shrine: the Ba’athist insurgents in Iraq are playing the policy planners in the Bush administration like a fine-tuned fiddle.”
“playing … the Bush Adminnistration like a fine tuned fiddle” - that sounds much more like the Likudites to me.
In fact, if you go back and read Ritter’s article as describing the Israelis/Zionists/Likudites/Neocons/whatever, rather than the Ba’athists, it reads just as plausible if not more so.
Ritter doesn’t offer any evidence of such claims that al-Zarqawi is a product of the Ba’athists or that they blew up the Canal Hotel.
Bush and the Neocons are single minded about being in total control and the UN threatened that. It would have given the Europeans (not to mention Russia and China) leverage with the whole situation. This is/was anathema to the Bush/Neocons.
I can’t see the Ba’athists doing the other things that are going on such as the destruction of the culture, be it the museums or their agriculture system.
Iraqi leaders from all walks of life are being driven out of Iraq or assasinated as are doctors and academics.
Ritter has used the Cui Bono approach to point to the Ba’athists. But for it to be convincing, he would need to eliminate the other actors. He doesn’t. And he doesn’t even mention one of the major players - the Likudite/Neocons.
I think that is telling.
All in all, it looks more like genocide to me, particularly, when you consider the extent and consequences of depleted uranium.
Who would benefit from this?
Who would be motivated to do this?
One group stands out from the rest - the group not mentioned.
Comment by Griffon — March 2, 2006 @ 10:47 pm
I agree and as you say he doesn’t offer anything other than his assertions. At first reading doing a straightforward search and replace of Ba’ath with the words “the Irish Government” would be just as convincing.
You’re certainly right about Iran - it’s no accident that the expression “political Islam” rose to prominence in Western discourse after the 1979 revolution. It’s also forgotten by a lot of people that it was Carter who enunciated the “Carter Doctrine” that the US would defend it’s interests in the Gulf as a direct response to that revolution.
I’m bushed folks - see you tomorrow.
Comment by markfromireland — March 2, 2006 @ 11:09 pm
Thanks for the comments on the Ritter article. I read it and thought ‘where’s the beef’. I will give you those links Griffon when I find them on my desk. Goodnight to all.
Comment by Grania — March 2, 2006 @ 11:43 pm
Mark,
“You’re certainly right about Iran” -
You’ve lost me there, I’m afraid.
One thing I missed saying in the last post was that “My enemy’s enemy is my friend” is a very valid saying.
The US forces are clearly everybody’s (those that have taken up arms, anyway) enemy. So, surely the Ba’athist straegy, overall, would be first to do everything to kick the US out. THEN do the civil war thing.
Occam’s Razor would suggest to me that the only players interested in promoting civil war are the US or someone sitting on the sidelines waiting to profit from the resulting chaos and damage to ALL sides.
This would point to Israel but there may be others. But I don’t know. I don’t know what various Iranian factions want, for instance.
I have read that the Israelis are currying favour with the Kurds.
Mark, is it true that the Kurdish north is relatively quiet and that the pipelines heading west from Mosul(sp?) never get hit?
There has been an explosion in Pakistan killing an US diplomat. My first thought was of a black ops job. I think I’m becoming paranoid!
But then, “just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after me!” (Bumper sticker I once saw)
Comment by Griffon — March 3, 2006 @ 12:04 am
Thanks, Grania. We cross posted. ‘night, all
Comment by Griffon — March 3, 2006 @ 12:29 am
Griffon - didn’t Sy Hersch report a while back that Israelis were being used as security or trainers in Kurdish areas? trying to remember but it’s sleepy time here - I’ll see if I can dig that out tomorrow unless someone who knows answers first. It’s clear here in the states that W’s pr hold is crumbling which I fear moves up the Iranian move considerably - and US admins have been gunning for them since they were so rude as to kick out the shah … some of us do remember that and Carter’s doctrine all too well. (In fact, having met some victims of Savak’s “justice” I did a radio interview at the time suggesting that Iranian hostility to the US was actually quite “reasonable” - as I recall, it was not a popular position)
Comment by siun — March 3, 2006 @ 5:52 am
Hersh story on Israeli involvement with Kurds - http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040628fa_fact
Comment by siun — March 3, 2006 @ 6:00 am
Yep, that’s it siun, thanks.
I think I may have read reports on Hersch’s article. So it was good to read the original. The statement below from the article caught my eye as I am not sure it is true. Although I could be confusing it with Mosul. Any comment, Mark or others?
“an American military expert who is studying Iraq told me. “And, even if the Kurds do take Kirkuk, they can’t transport the oil out of the country, since all of the pipelines run through the Sunni-Arab heartland.”
The Kurds in Iran are mainly in the north and there is a large oilfield in the north as well but I don’t know if it is the same area.
The Kurds are convinced (with good reason) that they need to protect themselves and have spent years assembling the Peshmerga force. I imagine they would be strongly attracted to an alliance with Israel although I think they will ultimately regret it as the British did and the US are beginning to as the Israelis have a habit of using their allies as proxies.
I had to smile when I read Hersch reporting someone saying that some of the Israeli “businessmen” use passports other than Israel’s. Yeah, they use passports from ally countries such as Australia and New Zealand (& Canada?) so that if they are sprung or traced afterwards, they “false flag their allies. Nice.
Something else of interest that caught my eye the other day was that Israel had aircraft stationed in Turkey.
Comment by Griffon — March 3, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
Note to self - “must start keeping links”
Time for MY beauty sleep, now.
Comment by Griffon — March 3, 2006 @ 12:24 pm
OK Griffon sorry for the delay re Pipeline www.atimes.com In the Pipeline: More REgime Change by Hooman Peimani, wwwakhazeerah article by Mike Whitney 10/27/05; but the one that really made my heart stop is on www.libertyforum and I can’t access it dammit - but the thread is ‘Mossad has been behind Pipeline bombings and the maps show H1, H2 and H3 practically on top of the pipeline. I will keep trying to get better access for you. Supposedly this all goes back to Kissinger’s time and Rumsfeld has been a player in this area for decades with Bechtel handling maintenance work - sorry this is so sloppy.
Comment by Grania — March 3, 2006 @ 6:38 pm
Thanks very much, Grania. I appreciate it.
For anyone who hasn’t read it, I thoroughly recommend it. This link will take you straight to it:_
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ED04Ak01.html
A bit of history - the Iranians (under the Shah) shipped oil to Israel’s Red Sea port of Elat. The published story was that it was for transhiping to the Med coast (Haifa?) for transport to Europe.
The story I read was that this was nonsense and most if not all was used by Israel and as they basically got it for free, their economy boomed.
Since the new Iranian regime stopped this arangement, the Israeli economy has struggled and is going backwards at high speed now. Social security benefits have been drastically reduced and there is a net population drain now.
I was surprised to hear Sharon talking up the pipeline in recent months and alerting general readers to the situation, but then thought it was for the benefit of financial backers (maybe European) of the Israeli economy. So, I figure they’re in a tight spot and see themselves as fighting for their lives (and their dreams of Greater Israel’s hegemony of the region - and then beyond!) which is ironic given that they have fed this line to the world and their own population for a couple of generations now. High stakes.
I’ll check those other links later, Grania, when I have a bit of time. At the risk of more palpitations, you could look into Israel’s water problem and the solution they see in Lebanon which adds another dimension to the move to oust Syria from there.
Anyway, I think I’m taking up too much bandwidth here.
Comment by Griffon — March 3, 2006 @ 8:26 pm
Anto what’s he posting? I can’t read Arabic that fast?
Comment by Declan — March 3, 2006 @ 8:28 pm
Nobody can read it Deco every time I hit refresh the paragraphs vanish and reappear.
Comment by Tony Byrne — March 3, 2006 @ 8:31 pm
Give me time for pity’s sake - and in response to your PM Anto yes he’s the same one whose just escaped an assasination good point I’ll put that in.
Comment by markfromireland — March 3, 2006 @ 8:43 pm
Pasted into wrong window sorry. mfi. i have it up on guides now. If blogger takes ages to load but you see it and the translation just hit the stop button - it’s a blogger bluggeration not your browser.
Comment by markfromireland — March 3, 2006 @ 9:26 pm
Griffon - I remember reading that Israel was cutting social security to pay for the settlements you would think that would make the average Israeli royally pissed off. As I understand it the settlers are highly subsidized.
Comment by Grania — March 3, 2006 @ 9:33 pm
Done. I’ve posted it both to gorilla’s guides and here as an update to the reaction to Samarra bombing post below
Comment by markfromireland — March 3, 2006 @ 10:36 pm
Do you guys think I should do that as a whole new posting?
Comment by markfromireland — March 3, 2006 @ 11:43 pm
commented on gorilla but a new posting would be great since it would shorten the scroll and I have a feeling we’re going to have lots more questions - thanks for getting this info to all of us!
Comment by siun — March 4, 2006 @ 3:31 am
Yes, Grania, tensions are very high in Israel between the settlers (many lured to Israel with extravagant promises) and a large section of the general populace and the “pie” is getting smaller and the cost is hitting home. To many Israelis, the settlers are at best embarrassing and at worst infuriating due to their outrageous and lawless behaviour.
For others, the second of your links can alternatively be found here:- http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10776.htm
Again, an excellent and enlightening article. The “meat” is in the second half with a kicker in the last paragraph.
Another question for Mark comes out of it -
“If Mehlis was truly serious about finding out who the assassins really are, rather than carrying out a political vendetta for the United States, he would be devoting more energy to uncovering the details related to the white Mitsubishi Canter Van that carried the explosives. The history and origins of this van, which was stolen in Japan on Oct. 12, 2004, are critical to the investigation as journalist Robert Parry points out in his recent article “The Dangerously incomplete Hariri Report”.”
Vans used for bombs in Iraq were reported as having been stolen in the USA last year and now this one in Syria being stolen in Japan.
What’s going on?
What’s the advantage of a van stolen internationally over a van stolen locally?
Comment by Griffon — March 4, 2006 @ 4:50 am
Just posted and misspelt my email address (again!) but hopefully it will “pass inspection” with the moderator.
I also add my voice to siun’s, Mark. I note zennurse commented on the news article in the thread comments below. So posting it will sort that source of possible confusion out as well as shortening the scroll.
Comment by Griffon — March 4, 2006 @ 4:57 am
Hi, came over from FDL, thanks for posting all this information.
One wrinkle– that Asia Times article is from ‘03, (see Comment #68) and what comes to mind is– last year, when Rice was visiting Israel, they (Israel) officially and publicly told the US to please stay *out* of Syria, thankyekindly. Voicing public disagreement like that does not happen every day, I think…
Comment by tyro — March 4, 2006 @ 5:03 am
I can’t get into Libertyforums either, Grania. Have you had any more luck?
If anyone else wants to have a go the direct link is here:_
http://tinyurl.com/c3dgd
Comment by Griffon — March 4, 2006 @ 5:13 am
This link lays it all out.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3812
On caution, though, some people think the author, “The Voice of the Whitehouse”, is disinformation agent. But the info looks kosher to my amateur eyes and there are many source links at the end to check background with (but I haven’t as yet)
So with those provisos, read on and see how it all fits together.
Comment by Griffon — March 4, 2006 @ 5:43 am
Hot update - Abbas Kadhim has a new piece out
Comment by markfromireland — March 4, 2006 @ 8:09 am
Yeah do it as a new posting.
Comment by the smurph — March 4, 2006 @ 11:57 am